Or rather get them separated.
I know a good percentage of you who are fans. I know that you know that I am not. Not a fan at all. I don't care about it, really. Go where you want to go, be what you want to be. All that stuff. I don't believe it is Mecca. I don't think it is the only place a person should learn and grow. I definitely don't think it is the only place my children should go. I kinda hope they don't. But, truthfully, I don't care if they do.
I am talking, of course, of Brigham Young University or BYU.
Do I think it is a good university? Sure. One of thousands. I am not a BYU basher. Truly.
Here is what I wish would happen to BYU. I think is would be great if BYU became the Mormon University of Notre Dame.
As in, religious in background and teaching, but not financially supported by all Catholic members.
As in, a great private institution that makes their own decisions/rules and whatever those are do not reflect the entire Catholic community.
As in, the Patriarchs and Catholic Pope are not on the governing Board of Trustees.
WhY?
Because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a worldwide religion.
Because BYU is a private institution that does not represent an entire worldwide membership.
The alumni of BYU should subsidize the university... just like all other universities. Tithing might have been necessary in its inception, but the graduated members should pick up the tab now. Or raise tuition. Maybe instead of students paying 30% and tithing making up 70%, students should pay equal to their abilities and only those who need it are subsidized by tithing... or better yet, by alumni!!
Because the rules and guidelines of students at BYU are NOT THE RULES AND GUIDELINES OF THE ENTIRE CHURCH! If our own members can't make the line of distinction, how can we assume that others will? Yes, men can have facial hair in our church. No, we do not have an Honor Code Office for the entire church. No, there is not an OFFICIAL DECLARATION REGARDING CAFFEINATED SODAS! And BYU Idaho and the banning of overalls? Area-specific. Not saying they are wrong, but it is also not a commandment.
Because unlike the church membership, the attendants at BYU are 18 - 24, on average. College kids! For Pete's sake! They are not the entire representation of even Mormons in Utah. Come to my ward: Newborns to Ninety-niners! Some of whom went to BYU, many who did not.
Because it is time to make a distinction and go out into the world as a Gospel for all. What the LDS do in Sri Lanka is just as important as those in Guatemala, and so on. Perpetual Education Fund is a boon to the world and to the mission of Christ. Let's focus more on that. Let BYU go do their thing.
Affiliated, but separate.
a
Monday, June 13, 2011
gotta keep 'em separated
by Anna M at 7:49 AM
Labels: college, school, what I believe, what? me complain?, who I am
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24 wise comments:
None of my kids went to BYU. And you make some very good points here.
To be honest, I think the rules are way over the top. Not that I don't think there should be rules, I just think they are so strict as to be almost silly.
=)
Wait, what?
Did you have a run-in with a cougar in the past? I guess I just don't understand the passion and energy you put in to criticizing BYU. To each his own...
Angela, you said: "Did you have a run-in with a cougar in the past? I guess I just don't understand the passion and energy you put in to criticizing BYU. To each his own..."
What's inherently negatively "critical" about saying it should become an institution independent of LDS funding? It's just an opinion. Could that question only be bred from a "run in" as you suggest?
Anyway, I think it's legitimate to wonder what use a quickly-growing international religion has for brick-and-mortar schools that can serve less and less of its membership every year. Do the ends church schools provide justify their cost? What are the ends? Is it a degree? Cannot an LDS student get a diploma from any number of state or private institutions that already exist? Does a curriculum need an LDS spin? Cannot personal gospel study help a individual find the truth in academic opinions? So what does BYU uniquely offer? An LDS social experience? If so, does the church need to run a (VERY expensive) series universities simply to offer a social experience?
I think they're legitimate questions; ones that I don't think require a "run in" to be asked. That's just my two cents.
@ Sue: agreed. I don't even care about their rules. If people want to go there and follow them, then I say "have at it!" But I only cringe when those rules become entire LDS-population member rules by proxy. Whether supposed from within the church or without.
@ Ange: I don't get what you mean about a run-in. I don't even think this is as passionate as you seem to suggest. I am just sharing my opinion that I think it is fine to have a separated affiliation. I don't think a worldwide religion needs to continue to support a school for a small minority of its members. I have no ill will towards the institution itself. I think it needs to formally be divided from the leadership of the LDS church.
@ Alan: I think the LDS church tries to give everyone a social experience at that age. But somehow we don't consider local Institutes to be as beneficial as an entire university/city. I was guilty of it as a college student.
I'm a little confused about all of us, but rather intrigued as well. Does YOUR tithing go towards BYU funding? I guess I don't know what rules are in place at BYU versus what guidelines the Mormons (non-BYUers) follow. I would love more clarification about your post. LIke I said, I'm intrigued and want to know more for my own reason and not to bash.
As you may know, I went to a Catholic University, it was expensive and we had funding from donors, not from the church itself. Yet, there might have been some Catholic grants that were given to the school. As for rules, we just had to follow lenient Catholic teachings---no drinking in dorms (yet, that was often broken, but not from yours truly), no teaching of birth control allowed, etc. But for the most party, despite the fact that we had to take 9 credit hours of Religious studies (any one that we chose, not just Catholicism), it was like a regular small, close knit university. Is that similar to BYU?
Thanks for making me think today Anna Madonna!
Oh Anna, I am in 100 percent agreement. First, sucks for kids that want to go to byu and have paid their tithing their whole lives and will till the day they die, but didn't get their education supplemented. It shouldn't be so bloody cheap. It just shouldn't. I love how you do the 30 percent, 70 percent ratio thing. I think if we were really being Christlike as a church we would use tithing to help others and like you said the education fund does this, however building a huge mall, flying the 12 on first class and making tuition exteremely cheap for mostly kids of the west doesn't exactly scream Christs true church using the memebers tithing like it should.
Now onto the standards. It's just the same as the whole pharisee thing. We read new testament versus about how silly those pharisees were for being so obsessed with/and setting themselves apart from others because they couldn't keep the letter of the law. The lesson is supposed to be Christ-like love of our fellow men and our god (aka don't sweat the small stuff). All BYU and BYU-I do is focus on such minimal dare I say silly rules, that they are a brainwashing ground of infecting the young adults of the church that this is what it takes to be a mormon- pharisee like following of every silly thing. And maybe that is why no one, especially BYU alums question if we should be using our tithing money for more than just funding the mall and the school...why should we question, when we are too busy feeling good because we don't drink caffeine, and don't watch TV on Sundays.
I guess it just boils down to having faith in the apostles being the stewards of our tithing. You may both ho-hum that. Maybe I'm just naive in your opinion. I wasn't looking for a debate or an argument...just trying to understand your constant opinions against BYU. It's not like this is the first time you have ever raised your eyebrows. It makes me chuckle when you insist you dont bash or dislike BYU. You don't care about it? I think you care about it A LOT. You wouldn't talk about it if you didn't care. You would be ok stepping foot on campus if you liked the place just a little bit. Your family probably wouldn't feel the need to "B.Y.Boo" it. Just trying to understand where the hostility stems from with you. It may not be a meeca to you, but it is to me. It was to my parents and to many of my friends. Can't you be allright with it being the right place for some, but not necessarily for all? Is there any University, other than U of U, that's perfect for EVERYONE? I think not. Go cougars!
Anna,
Interesting that you would choose this forum to inform everyone of your feelings about BYU as a basis for being critical of the church funding mechanism. As an alum and a supporter I have my own criticisms but save it for those who can make a difference not just broadcast to the world. It would be an interesting open family conversation but inappropriate when you don't have all of the facts as a blog topic. You and Alan do have a chip on your shoulder about BYU. Admit it and move on, I say.
Your father
Ang, it's just two sides of a coin. I respect your opinion. I apologize if I've offended in any way.
We all have our own perspective on BYU, and I don't think that makes any of us better Mormons or disciples of Christ, etc.
I love you and your family, so I don't want us to get upset with each other over something like this.
I hope we see you guys this summer or sometime soon!
Love,
Al
Wow. I like Angela don't understand where this hatred for BYU comes from. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't take the time to write about it. Anna, I love you, but you are a BYU basher.
I have heard on several occasion leaders encourage students to get an education where they can, knowing that not everyone can attend BYU. There are many places people can and do attend college to learn and grow. BYU has never said it is the only place to go.
I also think these types of conversations should be reserved for personal conversations, not for blogs where many can be confused.
I don't know the exact numbers but it would be interesting to find out exactly what percent of the total tithing goes to BYU. I am sure many would be suprised at how small a percentage it would be.
I know for a fact that recently built buildings at BYU have been funded by donations, and not tithing funds.
It is a private university and yes, they can set their own rules and guidelines. They are not asking members of the church to abide by the university honor code. I don't see where there is any confusion on this.
I think BYU IS doing it's own thing regardless of those who continue to oppose it. If you have an issue with a VERY SMALL portion of your tithing going there, talk to someone who can help you understand why they do it.
Sorry I couldn't let this one go without a comment.
So...are you sure you don't want to come to Education week?
Love you Anna
@ Suzanne: yes, all tithing is allocated to go wherever and however. We pay our 10% not knowing where, but in faithfully paying, we trust it is allocated appropriately. I think some people are worried because I wrote this and someone who is not LDS, like you, should have questions, that this makes discussion inappropriate. I disagree, apparently. This is one of the things that is difficult for me about members of the church, not with the church itself.
@jodi: I actually disagree. I think that the members of the Quorum of the 12 SHOULD fly first-class. For what they do and the lives that they have devoted, a first-class ticket to spend more time spreading love and good will is the least that they deserve. But I do appreciate your comments.
@ Ange, Gil, and Marci: WHOA! Talk about passionate opinions!
I think you all are assuming things about my opinion that aren't true. I feel that your opinions of me might be projected from previous conversations that we've had, and not this post. This post ALONE is not BYU bashing. If you take it as such, I am sorry. YES, I went to a rival university and when it comes to sports I have fun with it. Don't attack me personally when I poke fun generally. That's not fair.
I do not doubt the church leadership; that assumption is hurtful. I wonder WHY sometimes about things that are superfluous from the actual GOSPEL itself.
My children know that they can go to WHATEVER SCHOOL THEY CHOOSE. BYU included. They know if they do go to BYU that when it comes to sports, we will tease them relentlessly.
Anna,
I worte a big long response to your last comment...and then erased it. Let's just agree to disagree!
Hey! You don't hate BYU THAT much, you did go to Israel through BYU. Wowzers! You REBEL, you! And I am so thankful I met you there! XoXo Chin up sister. It is amazing what gets people riled up! And BYU apparently is an easy one. Holy smokes!
First of all I just want to say that I love you Anna Bobanna! To the moon and back. I still remember you dancing in Marci’s bedroom when she was packing up for collage. BYU to be exact. You have been a good friend to her and to me. The next thing I have to say is, I know what you are feeling. I really do. I went to USU for two years before my mission and HATED BYU with a passion. We would taunt and make fun of them with no mercy. I remember going on campus and thinking what narrow-minded sheep the students were. I then went on my mission. On my mission everyone at USU either got married or graduated. All my comps were going to BYU. My parents moved to Provo and were running student housing there. My bother registered me at the Y while I was gone. So I came home and it was pretty much a done deal. I always said that I went to USU, served a mission, repented then went to BYU. But, amazingly enough, even with my predigest views, I absolutely LOVED BYU! I loved the classes, the rules, the prayer before the class started, the students, the campus, EVERYTHING!!! I am true blue BYU through and through. I understand where you are coming from because I was once there. So my answer to your quip “gotta keep ‘em separated” is…..
“TRY IT, YOU’LL LIKE IT!” Seriously, it is a great school and if you haven't been there to know... you wouldn't. Love ya Momma Cook
WHERE DID I EVER WRITE THAT I HATE BYU?
I will not agree to disagree. Especially when my post has NOTHING TO DO with some accusations.
:0 ;) '~'
I neither love nor hate BYU. While I think it's a fine institution, I'm loyal to my heathen alma mater.
However, I do feel strongly that once I hand over my tithing check, it's no longer my money. If Church leadership feels that subsidizing the tuition of church university students is where some of it needs to go, then so be it.
@ Stephanie: I agree. And thank you for commenting on my post's topic! ;)
I pay my tithing because I have faith. I am not suggesting anyone is WRONG for using it to pay for tuition. My thoughts are that it is an expired model for a growing, more visible church. And as visibility grows for BYU as well, the lines to distinguish the two are blurred. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Not BYU.
The line needs to be more defined.
I am obviously a little late in the conversation, but let me just say that I LOVE that you are able to step outside the box and think and say things that others would be afraid to. People like Jodi and me need to know that there are others out there within the church who feel like we do! Not that BYU funding is a testimony breaker or anything, but it's just awesome that you have an opinion that others may look down on (which from the comments, they clearly do). KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! :)
I believe that I'm the only non-Mormon replying on this, but I don't believe that I'm the only one not interested. Just for the record.....even though BYU knocked my alma mater off the NCAA tournaments, I have no hard feelings!
With that said, I was this close to attending BYU. I think BYU is a good place, a lot of my friends went there, but that is all I know about the school.
I'm enjoying learning more about the church and the university, just as I would enjoy learning more about any religion and religious university.
I really do admire and respect all of you---the ones that I know.
@ Nancy: thank you. My intention was for a dialogue, and sometimes it doesn't go the way you anticipate. I appreciate your comments and your kindness.
@ Suzanne: I didn't know that you almost went to BYU. That is kind of funny that it was between Gonzaga and BYU--two very religious and different universities. I agree that it is great learning more about all kinds of religions and schools. Let's do more of that. ;)
Anna,
Thanks for helping me pay for college. I owe ya. ;)
Spence
Anna,
First and foremost, this is YOUR blog, so it is completely okay for you to post YOUR opinions.
I think that some of the above comments illustrate my personal critique of BYU. I think that in order to grow, one needs to be challenged. This includes being exposed to ideas that you may not be comfortable with. Diversity of ideas is so important in the University environment. And, as demonstrated, a lot of members of the LDS faith, consider it equal to blasphemy to question any decision the "one true church" makes.
I have never really thought about your point... I had always just equated BYU's beliefs with the Church's. I think that not only does BYU project its rules to the world as the beliefs of the Church, but also to Church members. But I wonder, do you think that disassociating at this point would even matter, or is the damage already done?
I think that all aspects of academia must be criticized. Otherwise, discussion halts, and the learning "experience" is extinguished. That is the problem with intertwining an education, with a religion that answers the hard questions by saying "just have faith." However, in academia the focus is answers, not faith. (Just curious, but do you think that overall academically BYU provides an adequate education? Despite, my feelings, I think BYU turns out well educated alumni.
I really appreciate your honesty. I understand you weren't bashing BYU in this post.I admire that you stick with your convictions, even when attacked. I think that the reaction of those who've reacted negatively, just demonstrates why BYU and the Mormon Church should be "affiliated but separate."
@ Andee: thanks. sincerely.
I don't know if it's too late to separate the two, if the "damage is already done". Could be. If anything, the strongest connection would be with past alumni. Let them, I say. But I would think that as the LDS church becomes more and more visible, the sooner the separation, the better for the Church's overall image.
I'm a BYU-I grad. I have no previous Anna "BYU-bashing" conversations to reference or distort my interpretation of this post and I can say that this post alone isn't very antagonistic. She's just asking questions. But Anna, the italics, bold, all caps and exclamation marks do certainly portray passion. No denying that. A few thoughts in response to your good questions and other comments:
1. My favorite parts of going to BYU-I had nothing to do with the rules, the church member students, or even the quality of education. It was a) the region, Tetons & easy access to rural/wilderness areas; and b) the cost that allowed me to get a decent degree (in advertising with a minor in music and graphic design) without crippling debt. Nothing to do with the extreme rules or required religion classes/credits or illusion that it’s the only place to go. I now have all my student loans paid off and have a very competitive job, but I don’t attribute my job to my degree at BYU-I. At all. College costs are getting out of control compared to 20 years ago. They aren’t following the rest of the economy. I agree that a different program that was more like tithing-backed financial aid (As you hint at) would have also worked, as long as it had the same outcome. Means to an end.
2. I have no illusion that BYU student rules are the same as church commandments. None at all. But i can understand if non-members who don't have the internal insight do have this false understanding. But here’s the kicker: I think the sillier rules/traditions at BYU would be talked about just as much if the church didn’t own the school and the board of directors wasn’t the GA’s. They would still be understood by many as “Mormon lifestyle restrictions” because they would be. Maybe not church doctrine per se, but Mormon lifestyle restrictions, yep. Those who misinterpret the Uni rules as church wide teachings don’t care whether the church owns it. Even if it were like Notre Dame, it would still be “the Mormon university” to the outside world, so your PR concern would still exist, unfortunately. Sorry.
3. I also have a cringing reflex when I imagine the 12 flying coach, as much as they fly, and as much as I WANT them to travel in this truly worldwide church. This feeling is based in point I share with you: This is a worldwide church. Let’s remember that.
4. Can you explain: Does the church build non-profit malls? They aren’t for-profit investments that are based on revenue calculations that plan to eventually pay for themselves and even make a profit? If they are based on a normal investment calculation that is intended to pay for itself, then what’s the real problem? The church has a very diversified investment strategy to keep its coffers full and fund the building of the kingdom. As it should.
5. Regarding the expired model for a worldwide church: Should we build a BYU or two in South America and/or Europe? That’s actually an interesting idea! Same concept: Globally recognized, accredited higher education OPTION (emphasis on “option”) that offers a unique offering of relative affordability and a place where you can hang with people who have similar standards (especially unique if it were in Europe or South America…ironically NOT applicable for a university in Utah, of course). But I wouldn't want those universities built instead of more temples around the world, if we had to make a financial choice. Also, keep up the PEF, of course. Gotta love the action of the PEF.
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